sovay: (I Claudius)
sovay ([personal profile] sovay) wrote2014-05-15 05:25 pm

There are no stars at all for some of us

Hey! Internet! I've just been talking about how much it sucks when a novel kills off its queer characters. Especially when there's, like, one of them and they're the one who doesn't make it. Can someone point me toward a list of books where that doesn't happen? Spoilers, whatever.

[identity profile] desperance.livejournal.com 2014-05-15 09:34 pm (UTC)(link)
Hmm, well, there's that Chaz Brenchley fella: his early thrillers are not reliable in this regard - he notoriously said that no one gets a free pass, into or out of his books - but the epic fantasies, The Devil in the Dust et seq or Bridge of Dreams et seq, those certainly feature gay characters who don't die. Also that Daniel Fox person, Dragon in Chains et seq: you have to wait a while, but there they are. Not dying.

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[identity profile] teenybuffalo.livejournal.com 2014-05-15 10:08 pm (UTC)(link)
Two widely disparate books are the only ones that occur to me: The Mask of Apollo, by Mary Renault, which is notable in that the onstage deaths happen mostly to characters who are understood as het, or whose sexuality we don't know. Meanwhile all the characters who are explicitly gay/coded as gay survive the book just fine, if I remember correctly.

The other one is The Silver Metal Lover, in which Gay Best Friend is kind of one-dimensionally campy but does make it to the end of the book alive and well after having had a sex life and all.

Oh, wait--Francesca Lia Block's books have a lot of gay/bi characters who have a very good track record of surviving to the end of the book and getting on with their lives. There are one or two minor characters who are tragic and victimized and melodramatic, but the mainstays are Dirk and Duck from the Weetzie Bat series, and the title characters from Violet and Claire, and most of the characters in the short stories in Girl Goddess #9.

I recognize that a lot of people find Block insufferable, but I have a deep and old love for her work in general, and I can still remember particularly how weird it felt when I read Witch Baby as a kid and there was a same-sex couple who were reasonably well-adjusted people and had a good relationship and didn't die.

Tom and Carl from the Wizards books by Diane Duane--well, I know they're secondary mentor characters, but it would have been easy for Duane to kill one or both of them and send the protagonists out for revenge. Instead of which, they're still standing while many other secondary characters have bitten the dust.

I would have used the word "queer" for convenience in the above comments, except that I'm uncomfortable using reclaimed slurs. Mind you, I'm not saying this to shut you or anyone else down. But I feel weird about it when it comes to me using the term. On one hand, it's such a handy blanket term when "gay" would be too specific. On the other hand I don't want to sound like I'm using an insult/a slur/speech that I'm not entitled to; also, I've spent too much time around people who used it as a slur. So I'm conflicted. Do you ever feel this conflict?
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[personal profile] selidor 2014-05-15 10:14 pm (UTC)(link)
Duane's Three Kingdoms stories (incl. the 'Door Into' books) also feature quiltbag folk who live remarkably happy lives - Door Into Sunset rounded out with everyone getting married.

(not that I've forgiven Door Into Shadow for using [trigger warning trauma] as a character motivator. But it features some of the best dragons ever so that makes me keep it around.)

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[personal profile] weirdquark 2014-05-16 06:47 pm (UTC)(link)
I would have used the word "queer" for convenience in the above comments, except that I'm uncomfortable using reclaimed slurs. Mind you, I'm not saying this to shut you or anyone else down. But I feel weird about it when it comes to me using the term. On one hand, it's such a handy blanket term when "gay" would be too specific. On the other hand I don't want to sound like I'm using an insult/a slur/speech that I'm not entitled to; also, I've spent too much time around people who used it as a slur. So I'm conflicted. Do you ever feel this conflict?

Generally I only worry about this when referring to specific people, though if your audience doesn't know you well enough to know you're using it as an umbrella term for convenience, it's nice to put in a little caveat. But I'll use it to talk about the LGBT(etc.) community because it's more inclusive or when referring to a non-specific member who has an unspecified queer identity, and I'll use the more specific gay or trans or gender queer or bisexual if that's more relevant. I do like the term QUILTBAG but I don't use it because I've discovered that too many people don't know what I mean, so it's not helpful for being concise because I have to explain why QUILTBAG.

For individuals, I might say [name] is member of the queer community, but I wouldn't say [name] is queer unless I know [name] specifically identifies that way.

But other people do feel differently, so it can be tricky to navigate what's appropriate.

[identity profile] rose-lemberg.livejournal.com 2014-05-15 11:28 pm (UTC)(link)
I sent you Bridgers some time ago, did I not? It does not really count as a book, being unpublished.

[identity profile] handful-ofdust.livejournal.com 2014-05-16 01:05 am (UTC)(link)
I'm thinking particularly of Stealing Fire, but Jo Graham's Numinous World series is really good for that, overall: there's usually a couple of queer characters and at least one genderfluid character in the recurrent reincarnational melange, and no one ever dies just for their sexuality. If they die, they die because of the way their other characteristics interact with the time and situation.

[identity profile] handful-ofdust.livejournal.com 2014-05-16 01:09 am (UTC)(link)
(You could also make a case for Tom Ripley, who survives all his adventures without ever seeming to completely realize his own essential queerness, let alone the fact that he seems to have unwittingly married an equally stealth lesbian who can perform heterosexually when called upon. One way or the other, I find him hilariously entertaining, and I love the fact that Patricia Highsmith allows him to get away unscathed.)
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[personal profile] chomiji 2014-05-16 01:36 am (UTC)(link)

The Northern Girl by Elizabeth Lynn

Cyteen by C.J. Cherryh (lousy things happen to the gay characters, but hey, lousy things happen to almost everyone in that book)

Don't know whether you want manga, but here:

The manga series Samurai Deeper Kyo (both negative and positive portrayals of gay people; the most prominent of them is still alive and leading a productive, fairly contented life at the end, as part of a community)

The (short) manga series Antique Bakery

The manga series FAKE

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[identity profile] desperance.livejournal.com 2014-05-16 05:34 am (UTC)(link)
Oh! Oh! A Different Light. also by Elizabeth Lynn! Okay, gay character dies - but not for being gay. And it was the first SF novel I read where being gay was just, y'know, kinda normal really. I loved that...

[identity profile] debka-notion.livejournal.com 2014-05-16 01:37 pm (UTC)(link)
Mercedes Lackey may not be what I call quality writing (just a guilty pleasure), but her Valdemar books have several queer characters, a few of whom don't die. The Vanyel triology involves 3 queer characters, 2 die (1 in book 1, 1 in book 3), the other lives to a ripe old age- the deaths have nothing to do with their sexuality, though. The Winds and Storms trilogies have another queer character- Firesong (and a queer supporting character at the end) who doesn't die either. In fact, she does the "here's a pair or trio of queer supporting characters" thing in a variety of her books.

There's also the entire social structure of the planet O, in some of Ursula K. LeGuin's short stories (I think in A Fisherman of the Inland Sea)- where a marriage is 4 people, two men, two women, and each person is supposed to be sexually involved with one person of each gender (trying to summarize briefly).

[identity profile] adrian-turtle.livejournal.com 2014-05-16 03:59 pm (UTC)(link)
There's also the entire social structure of the planet O, in some of Ursula K. LeGuin's short stories (I think in A Fisherman of the Inland Sea)- where a marriage is 4 people, two men, two women, and each person is supposed to be sexually involved with one person of each gender (trying to summarize briefly).

"It's just as complicated as it sounds, but aren't most marriages?" (Mountain Ways)

[identity profile] ladymondegreen.livejournal.com 2014-05-16 04:27 pm (UTC)(link)
Since I haven't seen them here Black Wine and A Paradigm of Earth by Candas Jane Dorsey both feature queer characters who have various foibles and follies but live and die the same as other people (one of them is an accident heavy book, the other one has a serial killer tucked into its folds).

Gwyneth Jones has a series starting with Bold as Love that has a variety of characters with gender fluidity and features a trio of bisexual polyamorous heroes who go through a ton of bad shit, but don't die for being queer. Also, it's an Arthur pastiche set against the backdrop of British Green politics and folk festivals.

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[identity profile] ashlyme.livejournal.com 2014-05-16 05:17 pm (UTC)(link)
Hmm. There's Joel Lane's novel "The Blue Mask". Caveat: there's a queerbashing at the heart of it, but the central characters do make it to the end. There's a lot about Genet in there, odd story-games, and a play (I think Joel actually wanted to "adapt" a Genet story for that, but the estate wouldn't let him).
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[personal profile] weirdquark 2014-05-16 07:01 pm (UTC)(link)
Laurie Marks? Fire Logic, Earth Logic, Water Logic. (And when it exists, Air Logic.)
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[personal profile] genarti 2014-05-16 07:27 pm (UTC)(link)
I was going to mention Diane Duane's Middle Kingdoms (Door Into...) books as well. The mentioned trigger warning for the second book absolutely is worth mentioning, but the world in general seems to run on a pansexual default assumption, and I can't think of a single character who's confirmed straight. Or confirmed exclusively gay, for that matter.

I've only read the first of Tanya Huff's Quarters series, Sing The Four Quarters, although I believe [livejournal.com profile] bookelfe has read and reviewed all of them. But that first features a bisexual protagonist, who is a) married to another woman, and b) pregnant by a man (they have an open relationship at least in terms of one night stands while traveling, but this one featured some unexpected consequences). And all three of them survive the book just fine, IIRC.
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[personal profile] skygiants 2014-05-17 02:50 am (UTC)(link)
Gen is correct, lots of characters who are not straight in Tanya Huff! In addition to the first book with the bisexual protagonist and eventual stable threesome, the second book had a lesbian who was courted by a handsome prince and kept having to politely tell him that, no, she was still a lesbian and still not interested and would much rather run off with this hot lady assassin, thank you. (The hot lady assassin was also sadly not interested, but this was because she generally made poor romantic choices.)

Checking through my recentish reads: the heroine of Hild is bisexual and is the protagonist, so therefore seems likely to survive at least 'til the end of the series. Alaya Dawn Johnson's The Summer Prince does kill off one of its queer characters but a.) that is kind of inherent in the premise and b.) there are at least four more who make it to the end. Melina Marchetta's Finnikin of the Rock series is one of those book series where everyone ends up as part of a Designated Couple, and there is only one Designated Gay Couple, but BY GOD is that Designated Gay Couple going to have a decades-spanning romance and a happy ending!
Edited 2014-05-17 02:51 (UTC)

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[identity profile] nnozomi.livejournal.com 2014-05-16 10:13 pm (UTC)(link)
If you don't mind a comment from a random passerby: how about Melissa Scott's SF? Most of her heroines tend to be lesbian or far-future equivalent thereof, and there is relatively little killing off of anybody--or, when queer people do die, as in Burning Bright, there are enough other queer characters around that it's "somebody died," not "the LGBT character died." My favorites are the duology Dreamships and Dreaming Metal, where now that I think of it there seem to be practically no het relationships at all among the various main characters. (Also spectacular world-building.)

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[personal profile] rosefox 2014-05-17 05:39 am (UTC)(link)
*turns on comment tracking*

Can we also exclude books where the queer character is left alive but miserable/alone/grieving while everyone else gets a happy ending?

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[personal profile] rosefox 2014-05-17 05:53 am (UTC)(link)
Oh right, recs! Anything published by Blind Eye Books, and particularly Ginn Hale's books. The story "Marigolds" in Long Hidden is a lesbian story with a happy ending. :) And I just discovered Solace Ames's queer kinky romances and I love them to BITS.

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[identity profile] klwilliams.livejournal.com 2014-05-18 05:17 am (UTC)(link)
Chaz Brenchley novels (and Daniel Fox, and Ben Macallan) don't kill off the gay characters. Some of them, yes, but not all of them, and not the only ones.