sovay: (I Claudius)
sovay ([personal profile] sovay) wrote2023-08-08 11:37 pm

You said the future happened

Courtesy of [personal profile] newredshoes: Madeline Ashby, "Problems Plus Time: What Creates a Dystopia, Real or Imagined." I enjoyed this essay on G. K. Chesterton's The Napoleon of Notting Hill (1904) and I disagree slightly with it; I like its use of the novel to examine the definition of a dystopia, but its interpretation of Auberon Quin as the prototype of a twenty-first-century troll-tyrant elides the thing that actually makes him dangerous, which is not that he's so self-centered, but that he has no center at all. When he's still an unimportant and preposterously frivolous government clerk, he is accurately gauged as "a man who cares for nothing but a joke," which is to say "a dangerous man." Unknowing moments away from his accession by lottery to the throne of England, he makes a rare serious statement, which foretells all the trouble to come and which no one heeds: "Be careful how you ask me to do anything outré, to imitate the man in the pantomime, and to sit on my hat. Because I am a man whose soul has been emptied of all pleasures but folly. And for twopence I'd do it . . . Be careful how you suggest things to me." Hence the meta-joke-which-isn't at the center of the novel which makes him inseparable from the start of his lethally absurd reign from the man who will take his folly seriously enough to turn it to tragedy and eucatastrophe, namely that Quin's total inspiration for reintroducing the pageantry and factionalism of feudalism to London is not some long-nurtured Miniver Cheevy-ish nostalgia for an England that never was, but a chance thwack in the ribs with a wooden sword which he receives from a child playing King of the Castle in the streets of Notting Hill, an encounter which he never imagines, any more than the foreseeable outcome of encouraging the farce of a childish war game at adult scale suggests itself to him until it's fighting and dying in his streets, will exercise an equal and opposite influence on the child who grows up to be Adam Wayne, the incorruptible Provost of Notting Hill driven to resist the injustices of urban renewal by force of arms, inspired by his childhood encounter with the King by whom he was gravely told always to fight for "your old inviolate Notting Hill." Their symbiosis creates civil war and empire, the Badon Hill-like finale, the ambiguous epilogue where the masks of the metaphysics come off and what matters is not how things began, but how they are believed in. Of my non-comprehensive experience of Chesterton's fiction, this novel is my favorite; I read it for the first time as a sophomore in college, having tracked it down from the epigraph of Neil Gaiman's Neverwhere (1996). I really think they were separated by at least a semester, but it occupies an adjacent space in my memory to Hope Mirrlees' Lud-in-the-Mist (1926), which is fair because both novels feel as though they form part of the substrate of Susanna Clarke's Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell (2004). I like Auberon Quin, of course, which does not mean he isn't for much of the novel a frighteningly hollow kind of person, his jokes an expression far more of nihilism than humor. "I have walked along a street with the best cigar in the cosmos in my mouth, and more Burgundy inside me than you ever saw in your life, and longed that the lamp-post would turn into an elephant to save me from the hell of blank existence."
poliphilo: (Default)

[personal profile] poliphilo 2023-08-09 10:33 am (UTC)(link)
Gaiman is soused in Chesterton.

The Napoleon of Notting Hill is my favourite of Chesterton's fictions- apart, that is, from the Father Brown stories- which are in a class of their own.

I believe Auberon Quin (king of the fairies meets Harlequin) was modelled (loosely, of course) on Max Beerbohm.
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[personal profile] poliphilo 2023-08-10 06:25 am (UTC)(link)

I discovered the Father Brown stories when I was 10 or 11- shortly after I discovered Sherlock Holmes.They remain my comfort reading. I love the character of Fr Brown, the ingenuity of the plots, the Gothicism of the best of them, the colour and extravagance of Chesterton's writing and the fact that he has points to make and a philosophy to expound (even if I don't always agree with him.)

asakiyume: (miroku)

[personal profile] asakiyume 2023-08-09 11:39 am (UTC)(link)
I've never read the book; hilariously, the only thing by Chesterton I've read is Orthodoxy. To date I still haven't even read Lud-in-the-Mist, though everything I've heard about it makes me feel certain I'll like it once the time comes, and that you say it and this one of Chesterton's are a substrate for Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell is a recommendation for both. But so, I'm reacting to the ideas you're sharing here rather than my impression of how they match up with the book.

the thing that actually makes [Auberon Quin] dangerous, which is not that he's so self-centered, but that he has no center at all --If the emphasis here is that the lack of center is what makes Quin (as opposed to other people) dangerous is the lack of a center, then that's something I can get behind, conceptually. A person without a center can be dangerous. But I do think a self-centered person can also be dangerous.

the ambiguous epilogue where the masks of the metaphysics come off and what matters is not how things began, but how they are believed in. --Definitely agree with this. We need look no further than religions. They can have what seems from the outside to be pretty charlatan-like beginnings, and yet the faith of the people who adhere to them can transform them. You can end up with a durable new religion--or a death cult. Definitely what matters is not how things begin but how they are believed in.

Anyway, clearly another good book that I missed. I'll have to rectify that (... eventually).
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[personal profile] asakiyume 2023-08-11 12:07 pm (UTC)(link)
I really think you would like this novel. I agree! I hope I somehow manage to put it into my reading mix sooner rather than later. (Makes it sound like I'm not in control of it, but somehow it feels like it just happens.)

It comes down so strongly in favor of loving things because they are real—they are invested with their own meaning simply by existing. YES. I love that.

Re: Orthodoxy, what I recall was thinking that he was as lively a writer on Christianity as CS Lewis was, but that he had a similar flaw to Lewis, and to a greater extent, which is that if you had reservations about the theological point he was trying to make, then while you might admire the storytelling, so to speak, you didn't end up persuaded. To vastly simplify--and this is based on my very hazy recollection of the feel of the book rather than even one single specific point (I can remember none at the moment)--it would be as if he said, "Now, believers are, of course, basically either sheep or goats, and--" and then went on to be very intelligent, witty, and thought provoking in his analogy and in extrapolating things about sheep and goats ... when you don't accept the premise at all. Some things are just asserted. But I guess this is always a problem when you're talking about something. What things do you present as axiomatic, and which ones not?
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[personal profile] thisbluespirit 2023-08-09 04:45 pm (UTC)(link)
I apologise for landing on you and ignoring your post again (I have read The Napoleon of Notting Hill. I cannot remember anything about it, to my annoyance, nor which out of it and The Man Who Was Thursday, that I liked and which was the one where I understood (c.25 years ago!) nothing whatsoever. *stand about and nods intelligently along while hoping no one asks questions*

But I have finally acquired a working copy of The Winslow Boy (1999). I was so scared it wouldn't work that I do need to watch it again instead of rushing through it in snatches hoping nothing would jinx this one yet. (It does show an alarming tendency to slightly stick if I navigate rather than play through it, so maybe there is something about the edition that is a little off... I hope it doesn't give out too soon if that's the case !)

Anyway, it was very good and based on all of about 2 minutes googling and 40 minutes in the tumblr tag for "the winslow boy", I can tell you that it and the 1948 seem to be doing sufficiently different things in different ways that probably neither one need ever spoil the other; that you have to go back to 2014-13 to get gifs on tumblr that are of Jeremy Northam instead of Robert Donat; somebody loves a BBC 1977 version featuring Alan Badel and Michele Dotrice; and there was also, inevitably, as you have taught me, a screenshot of a presumably long lost 1958 BBC version featuring Peter Cushing (no knobs visible). XD
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[personal profile] thisbluespirit 2023-08-10 08:20 am (UTC)(link)
but my memory also suggests I thought it disappeared up its own metaphysics at the end.

Now that does ring a bell! It doesn't really tell me which way round my reaction was, though, since I like surreal anyway. I'd read Father Brown and some poetry by then, and also The Club of Queer Trades, which I read probably about the mid 90s and remains the thing of his I've liked the most, but since I've never come across it again since, I've no idea whether that was justified or just timing in the order of me reading his stuff.

I am even happier to hear that it's good and intrigued by the differences between the two film versions

As I said, my knowledge is mostly now from the fic I read and the tumblr hole I disappeared down, lol, as well as a v brief making of bit on the DVD, but the 1948 understandably added in some court scenes (which you would really expect a film to do); the 1999 did not, but obviously making Sir Robert younger alters the tone (or I would assume so) and it added an additional exchange of dialogue to the end.* But the director of the 1999 actually wanted to put on a Broadway version and found it so difficult to get backing that he decided it would be easier to make a film. They also use a lot of the historical cartoons and articles for the actual case it's based on throughout as well.

This is the tumblr tag for it, but I don't think you'll be able to see it from outside, but idk - you can try! here: https://www.tumblr.com/tagged/The%20Winslow%20Boy?sort=top

(It has unusually little extraneous stuff in it for a tumblr tag, isn't huge, shares content across the various editions, with lots of 99 screencaps but only 48 gifs to start with, person who liked the 99 so much they call their blog girlwhowatchedthewinslowboy (and then watched it 87 times during 2020 because ok why not), plus that one person out on a limb championing the 1977 BBC cardboard version (not me, amazing); go you, 1977 Alan Badel fan.)

But, most importantly, of course, here is the Cushing screencap: https://www.tumblr.com/petercushingonline/128997002706/peter-cushing-as-sir-robert-morton-with-richard?source=share

* ETA: This is something that keeps getting said about the 1999, but I had to do some looking into the play/1948/1999 for formatting a character for wrangling purposes and I'm now very unclear about what the additional dialogue is, or if it's just a confusion from the fact that it seems like it's absent from the 1948 film.
Edited 2023-08-10 13:16 (UTC)
thisbluespirit: (henry v)

[personal profile] thisbluespirit 2023-08-11 08:02 am (UTC)(link)
"An icy and mercurial performance." Dammit, BBC!

Those aliens out in space catching 1950s TV waves really need to hurry up and pop along with a copy of all the masses of Peter Cushing the BBC just carelessly failed to record or keep! I know, it does sound good.

And, as to the ending of the film, I must have been more tired and therefore deeply unco-ordinated, while flipping between three wiki entries all labelled The Winslow Boy than I realised, despite trying to check carefully which one I was on, but, thanks, I get it now. Basically what everyone was saying was that the 1999 is extremely faithful to the play with no additional court scenes or anything like that, but does incorporate the additional dialogue from the end of the 1948, which makes much more sense. (So, yes, Ronnie interrupts; yes, they have the in the gallery/on the floor challenge, but they also have that final exchange, although it ends not on him, but on the smile she gives after he's gone.)

One of the tumblr posts comments on it as a riff on Pride & Prejudice, which I hadn't thought about while watching, exactly (although tbf I was mainly thinking: Dear God, please don't stop working, thank you), but of course, and I feel like this film riffs on the 1995 P&P in three scenes particularly. (I'm very amused that one of them is the infamous wet shirt scene, only deeply, deeply Rattigan-restrained and obv with at least 2-3 layers of Edwardian clothing already present and correct, but even not thinking about much on the first watch I immediately picked up on the vibes of it being this film's equivalent of that moment.)

Anyway, it was very lovely, and I now know - very nearly 30 years after the fact - that I do like Rattigan a lot and not just The Browning Version. Talking Pictures shows the 1948 every so often, so I shall keep an eye out for it.
thisbluespirit: (TV)

[personal profile] thisbluespirit 2023-08-12 08:37 am (UTC)(link)
only more successfully in that this ending sounds better than My Fair Lady.

Funnily enough, I have just watched My Fair Lady for the first time, and, yeah, that is not an ending! (I watched it after my first Winslow Boy failed to do anything, I think. Or the second. The second, actually, lol...)
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[personal profile] skygiants 2023-08-10 01:54 am (UTC)(link)
I've not read any Chesterton but Man Who Was Thursday but this IS convincing me to put Napoleon of Notting Hill on my list.
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[personal profile] thedarlingone 2023-08-20 02:47 pm (UTC)(link)
I haven't got the energy to read the linked essay but I always appreciate seeing you have thoughts about things that I also have thoughts about, especially thoughts that I can't articulate. Which is especially true of the end of The Napoleon of Notting Hill.

I've read a great deal of Chesterton but I was myself devoutly Catholic for almost all of it so I'm not sure if any of my opinions still hold. Orthodoxy is very cram-packed though. It's such a thin book and so full of Chestertoning.

(Have you ever read The Ball and the Cross? It's very aggressively Christian even for Chesterton, but one of its protagonists is a... refraction of Adam Wayne in ways that I would be very interested to hear your thoughts on, even if they might boil down to something like "it doesn't work when the thing he's fanatical about is explicitly Catholicism". I have not tried to reread it since I stopped being exactly that level and type of fanatical about Catholicism myself; I'm not sure I would be able.)

For some reason, most of the recent references I've seen to Chesterton elsenet have been dismissing him as Problematic and therefore not worth reading. It's nice to see someone talking about his work on its merits and not merely because they agree or disagree with his politics.